which way is up?

I reached a moment of confusion looking at this:

https://booru.allthefallen.moe/posts/350189

Miyuki's pupils are in the direction of her mouth instead of her eyebrows/forehead.

If she were standing I would be thinking she is looking down

But she is on her back with her pelvis raised, looking at a partner who is above her... so is that looking up?

Basically I'm wondering if we're talking about 'up' in terms of gravity (absolute up/down) or in terms of the orientation of one's head.

You can compare in "upside down" poses too...

https://booru.allthefallen.moe/posts/343644 cream's pupils are toward her nose
https://booru.allthefallen.moe/posts/323976 edward's pupils are toward her brow

so is it cream=up ed=down like if they were upright, or does being upside down swap that to cream=up and ed=down?

I'm thinking perhaps no swap because in some cases we might lack a frame of reference for absolute up/down (like a loli floating in space) in which case the only consistent frame of reference is the face itself?

tyc said:

I reached a moment of confusion looking at this:

https://booru.allthefallen.moe/posts/350189

Miyuki's pupils are in the direction of her mouth instead of her eyebrows/forehead.

If she were standing I would be thinking she is looking down

But she is on her back with her pelvis raised, looking at a partner who is above her... so is that looking up?

Basically I'm wondering if we're talking about 'up' in terms of gravity (absolute up/down) or in terms of the orientation of one's head.

You can compare in "upside down" poses too...

https://booru.allthefallen.moe/posts/343644 cream's pupils are toward her nose
https://booru.allthefallen.moe/posts/323976 edward's pupils are toward her brow

so is it cream=up ed=down like if they were upright, or does being upside down swap that to cream=up and ed=down?

I'm thinking perhaps no swap because in some cases we might lack a frame of reference for absolute up/down (like a loli floating in space) in which case the only consistent frame of reference is the face itself?

if she is looking down at her coach its considered looking down

DontTouchMyCogs said:

if she is looking down at her coach its considered looking down

did you mean crotch?

also in defining 'down' we ought not to use the word 'down' as that gets circular

I'm thinking "chin" might make more sense as a reference point because "toward crotch" could actually be in weird places other than chinward in cases of contortion...

like for example
https://gelbooru.com/index.php?page=post&s=view&id=6020821
https://gelbooru.com/index.php?page=post&s=view&id=5467984

in those postures of spinal hyper-extension you would actually direct your eyes towards your eyebrows/forehead to look at your crotch, as opposed to chinward

tyc said:

did you mean crotch?

also in defining 'down' we ought not to use the word 'down' as that gets circular

I'm thinking "chin" might make more sense as a reference point because "toward crotch" could actually be in weird places other than chinward in cases of contortion...

like for example
https://gelbooru.com/index.php?page=post&s=view&id=6020821
https://gelbooru.com/index.php?page=post&s=view&id=5467984

in those postures of spinal hyper-extension you would actually direct your eyes towards your eyebrows/forehead to look at your crotch, as opposed to chinward

well imo looking down is good enough we really dont need tags for every type of pixel lol

DontTouchMyCogs said:

well imo looking down is good enough we really dont need tags for every type of pixel lol

eh this is more about the relativism of direction and how we use frame of reference, and I'm saying that since heads can rotate and stuff it should be eye direction in respect to face as the rule

tyc said:

eh this is more about the relativism of direction and how we use frame of reference, and I'm saying that since heads can rotate and stuff it should be eye direction in respect to face as the rule

It's completely relative, so it's more about the relationship between the characters, what they're looking at, and the camera. Trying to define it is probably an exercise in futility as whatever the definition it's going to be disputed and won't be able to cover each base. Imagine the situation where a character is lying back on a bed, head hanging over the side, looking directly at the camera which is on the floor. The character, if they were standing, would be looking 'upwards', but in this situation is looking 'down'. Altering the position of the camera and character, or introducing another character, can form more complex interaction. What if the character lying on the floor with their head propped on a pillow, gazing directly at the camera which was slightly elevated? The pillow one would be looking both 'down' and 'up' at the same time, depending on definition.

It's all way too subjective to adequately define and get everybody happy, so the only real definition I can see is 'when in doubt tag it'. Some will be dissatisfied with it not being a 'proper' look up or look down, but I expect that most searching those tags would appreciate interesting perspectives even if it wasn't precisely what they were after. I think the general point of this medium is getting exposed to new stuff after all.

Mmm... Thinking about this has given me more ideas of things I really want to see. Thanks and curses!

festwad said:

It's completely relative, so it's more about the relationship between the characters, what they're looking at, and the camera. Trying to define it is probably an exercise in futility as whatever the definition it's going to be disputed and won't be able to cover each base. Imagine the situation where a character is lying back on a bed, head hanging over the side, looking directly at the camera which is on the floor. The character, if they were standing, would be looking 'upwards', but in this situation is looking 'down'. Altering the position of the camera and character, or introducing another character, can form more complex interaction. What if the character lying on the floor with their head propped on a pillow, gazing directly at the camera which was slightly elevated? The pillow one would be looking both 'down' and 'up' at the same time, depending on definition.

It's all way too subjective to adequately define and get everybody happy, so the only real definition I can see is 'when in doubt tag it'. Some will be dissatisfied with it not being a 'proper' look up or look down, but I expect that most searching those tags would appreciate interesting perspectives even if it wasn't precisely what they were after. I think the general point of this medium is getting exposed to new stuff after all.

Mmm... Thinking about this has given me more ideas of things I really want to see. Thanks and curses!

Maybe it can be like, eyes_down, looking_up if they're inverted or something like that.

there is no up in space though, and sometimes we lack frame of reference for gravity in earth images (sometimes it is momentum that moves clothes/hair)

How about this: use the image itself as the frame of reference. If up and down are relative, then let them be relative to a constant.

zx29b said:

How about this: use the image itself as the frame of reference. If up and down are relative, then let them be relative to a constant.

when I think 'look up' I think 'eyes rolled back' even if they're flipped 180 degrees and technically looking at the ground

plus you could have issues where the angle of the pupils is diagonal relative to the image yet a perfect angle relative to their head

do you think we should also have "looking sideways" ? that's one way to avoid left/right weirdness

do you think we should also have "looking sideways" ? that's one way to avoid left/right weirdness

That would be one way to do it. We could also just ignore left and right in favor of something like "looking aside," which would cover most such instances.